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I got interested in John's work after learning that he was coming here for a workshop. After investigating his writing, I decided this was someone all of you should know about. He is on the leading edge, melding Eastern philosophy and Western science with some very astute observations on the subject of psycho-emotional well being. His approach is practical, and the results are real. So, pay close attention as you read and maybe you'll pick up some new insights to integrate into your own path.

Rick. You started out as an artist and then you began working as a psychotherapist. What prompted the change? What was going on in your life at that time that drew you into this field?

John. That's an interesting question. As well as working as a musician and composer, a major interest in my life all along was consciousness development. Starting in the '60's, I became interested in yoga and meditation and also started dabbling in Western psychotherapy. The whole emphasis, of course, in artistic work is going within and trying to bring forth in an expressive sense--very similar to the kind of orientation one uses in doing inner psychological work -- more or less a going within. But, even more specifically, it's more of a looking within to see what's there. As an artist, what you're doing is looking within and seeing what inspiration is coming forth from the unconscious aspect of yourself. In doing therapy, you're basically looking within also, to see what feelings are coming forth from the unconscious. It was a very natural transition for me. To take what had been basically an avocation for me, writing the book (Emotional Clearing) and then making it a profession.

Rick. Very interesting...I'm reminded that a few months ago we reviewed The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron --very similar to what you're saying. She uses the creation of art as the vehicle to look within. Do you still create as an artist? Are you doing any music or artwork at all?

John. Yes...actually, I'm into a very active phase of music right now. Even more so, because I've been away from it for so many years, having written the book, then promoting the book--just being away from the creative end of things. I think I needed that break in my personal life because maybe I had been doing it too intensely. I even mentioned in the book that I experienced a kind of burnout back in the mid-'80's. That's what prompted me into writing and researching psychotherapy--the Eastern and Western aspects of it. Now I'm really feeling the need to get creative again and get back into the creative side of myself.

Rick....so you're achieving some balance, then, between the two...

John. Yes. That's really what I'm trying to achieve. I wouldn't say I've reached it yet--the music is very enticing and...it almost carries me away. I have a hard time coming back to the reality of psychology sometimes...

Rick....sounds like fun, though. I studied a bit as a teenager, but never did anything with it...

John. ...it's really captivating. I'm working with electronic instruments and electronic music--and doing more or less "ambient" type music. There's a lot of that happening in California--that's one reason why I'm out here right now.

Rick. You're a native of New York?

John. I grew up in New Jersey, then I went to school in Ithaca, New York (Cornell University). Then settled in New York City.

Rick. Let's define a couple of terms here so we're talking the same language. How do you define spiritual?

John. I guess I would say anything that brings you more into the higher aspects of yourself. The aspects that were previously unconscious now coming into consciousness and that also relates to a sense of consciousness growth, or expansion. The growth of the spirit within the growth of the person. In other words, as we grow into our heart center, we experience more of the heart center--we experience more of the love aspect of the heart center. For me, that's what spiritual is. Eventually, that ties into the collective unconscious, in the spiritual sense. I believe the Eastern view of the spiritual that as we go within we discover the Infinite within. That's pretty much why I believe it occurs in this way. As you go within, you discover more of yourself, but that does tie in, eventually, to the God within. The Higher Self within.

Rick. Does that have any connotation of religion for you?

John. Not really. In fact, I feel that organized religion can very often be a detriment to really accessing the spiritual parts of yourself, because one can use that kind of dogma to just create new concepts to try to work yourself into. Trying to fit yourself into these concepts instead of really exploring and seeing what's within. That's the whole emphasis of psychotherapy: to see what's within without any preconceived conceptual framework. Even going so far as "Should I be a loving person?," "Should I be a good person?" Let's just see what's there. Let's move into working and experiencing what's actually within. Many times, it's not the positive and the pleasant that's there. It's very easy to reject those negative portions of yourself--in the name of a religious concept. Or even, as we say, a "new age" concept--which would be: "Let's become loving people." "Let's always be happy." Very often, we reject our negativity in the name of that kind of a so-called "pseudo-spiritual" ideal.

Rick. Right! Do you feel that being a loving entity is the natural state of being a human-- at least theoretically?

John. You know, that's an interesting question. A lot of people certainly say that. I would have to just go on what my own personal experience is: I do believe that as we evolve and mature, as we experience personal growth in the sense of transcending the dualistic nature of emotional experience, there is a greater sense of compassion and love and a sense unity among people and realization of the fact that we are all one together. But, to use that as a concept and as a direction, an ideal, to try to work towards, I believe can be self-defeating. We really have to start with the premise of just looking to see what is there.

Rick....we might want to avoid making that our goal then...

John....exactly. Yes. We don't want to have any goals, basically, on the spiritual path. Getting rid of the goals, especially the goals concerning so-called "pseudo-spiritual" activities. This doesn't mean that I'm condoning acting out negative feelings. Maybe I could clarify this right now for you. An important part of my approach is opening to feelings... I work with feelings, basically, thinking that feelings are the basis of the psychic stability that we want to experience. Feelings are relating very definitely to our experience on a psychic level. Even from an Eastern point of view, the astral plane, the next up from the Earth plane, is the emotional plane. So, what we need to do as we're working on our own personal evolution, is to work on the emotions next. I think that's the next important phase that many of us are experiencing...having been working on ourselves for a while. What it means is to connect to the feelings that are within: it means opening to the feelings, seeing what's there, moving into a kind of process with the feelings--which is what I describe in my book--an important part of that process is not acting out the feelings...the negative feelings in particular...it doesn't give you license or permission to act out negative feelings and extend any kind of hurtfulness or negativity into the world. We would definitely want to avoid that. So, when I say opening to and accepting what's there, I'm basically talking about it in the sense of experiencing your feelings as they are right now within yourself and working with yourself in that sense.

Rick. That's where the real energy is, too. Another term is "metaphysical" and "metaphysical model."

John. Metaphysical is a paradigm that explains things in the context that we can't really see. It's also beyond the scientific context. For example, the Eastern metaphysical paradigm would include the different plains of existence...the astral plane just mentioned, the intellectual plane...the existence of consciousness on these different levels...

Rick....anything beyond what can be quantified in the physical world?

John. Yes. That's what I'd say, basically, is what it is. And metaphysical philosophy would refer to things like the concept of dualism--which says that experience is perceived in terms of complimentary qualities, a so-called positive and a so-called negative quality.

Rick. OK...We've been hearing a lot about the "spiritual emergence process." As a matter of fact, last fall there was a conference in North Carolina with the psychotherapy people--psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, counselors, etc. Are you familiar with this term?

John. Spiritual emergence? Are you referring to Stan Groff?...

Rick. Yes. And specifically about the DSM4 (psychotherapists diagnostic handbook for qualifying certain conditions, for instance with insurance companies, prescribing treatment and care, and so forth) and the recent inclusion of the "religious problem" and the "spiritual problem" (but not as pathological conditions). What experience have you had with your clients being involved with what we might call a spiritual emergence process?

John. Nobody that I'm working with is specifically thinking of it in terms of spiritual emergence--or at least they haven't spoken to me about that. But, I could clarify what that means to me, if you'd like.

Rick. Please do...

John. I think it's the same as what we've been speaking about. As you go within and look at what's within, and allow what's within to come forth with the understanding that it's needed for your growth, that you're going into yourself spiritually, just as we discussed...what comes forth is usually a lot of negativity - what's been suppressed from the past. So, spiritual emergence, for me, means going within, opening to yourself, growing in that sense. The reason they're relating that to a kind of spiritual emergency, is that the negative stuff that usually comes up when you do that can result in a lot of uncomfortableness, and a lot of physical symptoms and manifestations which Stan Groff describes in his book Spiritual Emergency. Basically, the approach they advocate is looking at it as the emergence of suppressed negativity--whether it's in the body, or the emotions--and allowing it to work itself out in a kind of homeopathic way where you allow symptoms to occur. And having support while you do that. What I did in my book is actually advocate that same kind of approach.

Rick. Well, that's why I bring it up. As I read the book, it just kind of jumped off the pages at me.

John. Yes, it's a similar thing. The book is, more or less, a way to give yourself that kind of support. As the spiritual emergence occurs... understanding what 's happening, first of all...which is really important...

Rick. I think where a lot of people have a problem is when this begins to occur, they have nothing to relate it to. I'd like to thank you for your remarks and what you have done in your book. Your description of the chakras and their function is consistent with others that we've interviewed. But, I do have one question: Is it possible to integrate the chakras out of sequence?

John.....I guess it probably is, but I'm not sure if I'm enough of an expert to give you a definitive answer. I would say probably that's the case, but I think it's more comfortable to integrate them in sequence. If you integrated the heart center prematurely for example, you might have a lot of turmoil in the solar plexus and that could contribute to a kind of instability.

Rick. Well, this links again to the spiritual emergence process. You maintain that the "Kundalini experience" comes about through focused attention and practice--when we are consciously working with these energies. We've been told by other professionals in the mental health arts that it is also possible to have a spontaneous Kundalini awakening. Is this consistent with any experiences you have had? Is this really possible?

John. I have no personal experience with that, so I can't really give you a first-hand comment. I know from the literature that it is certainly possible.

Rick. You seem to be applying a similar philosophy to emotional healing as others are to healing the body-the holistic mind/body approach. What has the reaction been to your work by your peers?

John. I think the endorsements on the book are representative. An important point of the book is that suppressed emotions relate directly to our health. But more than that, the approach that I describe of acceptance of feeling and the need to actually experience feeling as the way to releasing the feeling...I think that's a new concept. Because prior to this current period, let's say the last decade--and I'm certainly not the only one saying this--there was a very confused standpoint about what it actually meant to release a feeling. It was thought that you had to express a feeling...

Rick....beat up the pillow...

John....yes. Whatever expressing a feeling might mean-doing that or going back to the person who you think had wronged you, or hurt you. Getting it off your chest, more or less. That's still a very prevalent understanding among a lot of therapists. The few of us who are sort of on the cutting edge-- if I could use that term--are suggesting that it's not necessary to express a feeling verbally to the outside world or at the person you believe is responsible for creating that feeling. What I'm proposing in the book, and with clients right now, is just to bring them into an experience of the feeling. It doesn't mean they have to express or act out the feeling. Just the actual experience of the feeling without the self-imposed blocking to the experience--which is why we don't normally experience our feelings fully. Just bringing yourself into the experience of the feeling using the various techniques that I do, which include entering altered state, breathwork, bodywork, and the proper understanding of what's happening. That is enough to allow the emotional content to be released. I think that's the aspect that other professionals are responding to--as well as clients.

Rick. Well, I think mainstream USA is beginning to open up. And, since you're dealing closer to where the thoughts originate that end up creating tumors and heart attacks, it occurred to me "wouldn't it be great to get this stuff into the schools now." So young people not only develop scholastically and physically, but emotionally as well. They would have some kind of understanding of their emotions and how to deal with them.

John. Yes!--that would be beautiful, to have some kind of emotional orientation class for kids.

Rick. Think of the long-term impact of that...

John. yes...how to work with your emotions. This is a whole aspect of education that is really neglected--it's all just "left brain" education, basically.

Rick. I've always thought schools at least need to have a class on how to listen. We're taught how to write, how to speak and read...but never how to listen effectively-which is over half of the communication process.

John. I wanted to comment on the mind/body thing..

Rick. OK

John....what's also important is to realize that when you hear people say "mind/body connection," what they're often referring to is the emotions and body connection.

Rick. That's an excellent point!

John. There's still a lot of confusion between the mind and the emotional self--between thinking and feeling. People think that if they can change their thinking, they can change their body. To me, the reality is that you have to work with your feelings in order to change the manifestation in your body...

Rick....underscores once again what Western culture is all about. That it is intellectualizing everything.

John. Right...and just avoiding the whole feeling issue.

Rick. This is a little bit in a different direction, now. You make the statement (page 94) "Prosperity cannot be used for personal gain." That one tossed me a bit. I've been operating under the illusion that prosperity is personal gain, or fulfillment. Would you expand on that, please?

John. What I was referring to was the throat chakra and the idea that what you put out comes back to you, magnified. The higher use of that center would be using it in an impersonal sense--putting out good works, for example with no thought of attachment to the works. When you're operating from a lower-self level, basically a level of attachment and working for personal gain, what I believe happens is that your motivation is more important than the actual activity you're trying to put out there...

Rick....the intention...

John. yes! The intention is most important. So, if you're coming from a place of, let's say, fear and anxiety and the desire for personal gain, that's really what you're putting out. It's not so much the activity, which is more or less a superficial result of that intention. That's what I believe would come back to you, somehow. It would be that intention for personal satisfaction based on a kind of fear orientation. So, 1 believe that your fear comes back to you. When I said prosperity, I meant the prosperity center is not best used for personal gain. I just believe that it's a higher consciousness center. It doesn't really start kicking in until we've gotten beyond the need for primarily personal gain.

Rick. Well, that makes more sense to me now. I appreciate that. Kind of going along with that, though, I almost got the feeling that it's also futile to set goals. We're only setting ourselves up for a "potential rejection" I believe is how you stated that. That's another tough one for me as I need a target to go for. That's how I run Connexions and every other venture I been involved with. How, then do you feel we should approach goals in life--just regular, everyday, mundane goals.

John. Yes. I wouldn't recommend the negation of all goals, in a carte blanche way. It's certainly important to have a direction in your life. That would include goals on the material plain. We have to work, and survive, basically. So we need a kind of goal orientation, in that way. But, we get into trouble when we become overly attached to the goals and become compulsive about it.

Rick. Then the real trap is the attachment, not the process of setting goals itself.

John. I would say that. It's also realizing that we use goals and the attachment to goals as a form of keeping our feelings suppressed. It' s the looking forward to things that brings us out of the present and brings us out of our emotional experience, basically.

Rick. Thanks. I see what you're saying, now. Suppose I am really able to move in to that place of self-acceptance completely. Therefore "unconditional love." How might that impact any karma that I may have created-this life, or any other. Does that dissipate any karma at all--positive or negative--or do I still have to "balance the books" so to speak?

John. I don't think it automatically negates any negative karma, if you want to think in terms of karma. When I think of karma these days, I think of the emotional aspects of karma and the emotions suppressed within. These give us the emotional energy that draw the events to us. That's how I see karma working. In order to work through karma, and I see it as a working through, primarily, on an emotional and feeling level. What self-acceptance does is enable you to move into a complete acceptance of your emotional experience. This is another way of getting around to saying "what is a spiritual person?" I think you've just specified it even a little more clearly. There's that kind of acceptance which is usually involved in spirituality, but if we're not at that place ourselves we have a hard time understanding why that would be spiritual. But, if we look at spiritual people, there is that kind of self-love and self-acceptance, and that's what enables them to be accepting and loving of people around them.

Rick. You can't give away something you don't have!

John. Yes!

Rick. That's a good distinction you make. I've always thought of karma as being something "around" me, so to speak. Now, 1 see it as something within me. This is very liberating...

John. ...that's great...that's one of the main points of the book. The fact that you can work through it by working with your feelings and emotions--is--to me in terms of my own personal work-that's what's really been important for me also.

Rick. OK. Here's your last question, and it's your "fun question for the day." Globally speaking, where do you think we're headed? Do you feel we've entered the "Age of Consciousness?"

John. Well, I've always felt that life is an evolution and that the experiences we're having on Earth are very definitely designed in terms of our personal and spiritual growth. I tend to believe that consciousness is evolving, that we are growing, and that we are growing towards the realization of a higher kind of self. My personal experience of that is still limited at this point, but, as far as I can tell, it does involve the elements of compassion and unity and moving into a sense of realization and oneness with a power beyond us that's also within us. So, the times we're experiencing right now are very tumultuous, but, looking at it from a positive way, I can only think that what we're doing is just releasing negativity. If we can view what's happening from that standpoint, we're actually using those experiences as a means to our own personal and spiritual growth.

And as we wound down, we both realized what an enjoyable and empowering conversation had just taken place. It is quite apparent to me that John is his talk. He is balanced, patient, and compassionate-living proof that what he teaches works. His perspective is a shift toward a more perfect understanding of the human condition and I can't recommend his work enough. If you are truly interested in liberating yourself from self-inhibiting emotions, read Emotional Clearing and attend the upcoming workshop this April.

Rick McBride